Post by Patrick Mills on Jan 25, 2009 23:57:11 GMT -5
Fishing a match last week I felt that I could not get enough Biosource into the swim to get a response without wrecking the swim due to over feeding.
A couple of team mates of mine used soaked Casters and got the response they wanted, I tried this and still could not get a response, with groundbait being a no no in the cold conditions and the water temperature being 5c what do you suggest to get the required bites.
Hi Chris
The 'devil is in the details' as the saying goes - looks to be true in this case at least. I'll send you a more detailed e-mail tomorrow, but, briefly, it think it comes down to keeping the optimum amount of 'B' in the swim by soaking a smaller amount of carrier bait in a stronger soak liquid.
Pat
I would also like to add.
Do not be so afraid of over feeding, when using B. As it is a stimulant fish will eat more, hence more feed is required. Up until the waters froze over, here in Illinois we were still using it with ground bait, with good results.
I would suggest trying heavier feeding on a pleasure outing first, just to see, and get use to the differences.
Trev.
Trev has hit on a fundamentally important difference between 'regular' cold water fishing and what should be expected when using Biosource. For the record, I'd like to go into some detail here on this point, as it's central to the whole project:
1. 'B' is a feeding stimulant, not an attractant. Thus, if fish are there they have no choice but to feed. As I mentioned to Chris and the TSO lads in a recent e-mail:
Thanks for the reports – they made for some interesting reading, and I think you are dead on when it comes to interpreting the poorer results. Basically, the trick with ‘B’ is to keep a certain threshold level of it in the swim at all times. For cold water this has shown to be a small toss pot of 2 tspn / L dosed micros every put in. Also, for less porous baits (meat, casters etc) you can use a pump to get them ‘sorted.
When fishing heavily stocked commercials, testers have found that swims that typically throw up low winter weights can be ‘switched on’ by ‘B’ – it seems that fish that are not actively feeding are often distributed over the whole venue; with the hot spots (deeper water, sheltered from wind etc.) housing the active feeders. It’s not that there aren’t fish there, it’s often just they don’t want to feed(!). Where ‘B’ scores is that it ‘activates’ these fish. This, I think, is a key point, as you can feed more and still catch, as any fish there will feed. If you don’t catch it’s likely the area may have little or no fish present – this happens sometimes, as ‘B’ is a feeding stimulant, not an attractant. Under such conditions Neil P found that casting around with a single grain of ‘B’ soaked corn until he found liners was just the ticket. Once you land on a fish they have no choice but to take the bait(!). Neil really nailed this down, so his old reports are really worth a re-read.
2. The take home message is clear, and reinforces what Trev says - keep the 'B' treated feed going in, as this will keep the fish activated by maintaining the required 'background' level of 'B' in the water (this is the basis of the Biosource patent).
3. This idea is radically different than established 'common wisdom' when fishing cold water - since the fish will now feed avidly, more feed must be introduced. Overfeeding is then not so much of an issue (assuming there are some fish in front of the angler). Even if they are not, you won't catch anything anyway, so stick to the regular feeding approach
4. About a year ago we tried encapsulating 'B' within some zero feed value carriers - soaked clays, kitty litter and soluble sugar blocks. The idea was they would stimulate, but not feed, the fish. They all worked to some extent, but never proved as good as feeding 'B' treated micros and / or groundbait every put in
Summary: Two years testing to this point has shown that regular feeding is needed, even under cold water conditions, with 'B' to get best results. This is because a specific threshold level of 'B' must be dissolved in the water at all times.
Please feel free to add here or send me a PM or e-mail if you would like more details. Full details regarding recipes etc. can be found at the preparations tips section of the www.Biosourcebaits.com site as a downlaodable .pdf file.
Pat
This is interesting, I will to having a team practice on a venue that we will be fishing at the end of January, and It can be tricky depending on the weather conditions and I now will go all out to blow a peg just to see the results, the venue at this time of year usually fishes for Skimmers and Bream but it does hold a large head of Carp that just don't respond well in the cold water, I cant weight to see the response,
;)I'd recommend starting with the recommended 1 toss pot full of micros per put in, as a higher dose of 'B' WILL over stimulate the fish! The last thing you want is a 'jacuzzi', although that would go some way to proving the point!
Looking forward to hearing how it works out.
Pat
Interesting stuff here I'm not sure I understand the concept of over stimulated fish in my swim though. At the Paylakes we fish, it has always been to our advantage to get the fish over stimulated just to keep them at your peg. Spodding and chumming are not allowed in any form but there are ways to get around these rules by the use of PVA bags or breaking pack baits. Most Paylakers try to get as much of their bait into the water as possible just to get the fish feeding in their swim. Once this is achieved as noted from the constant line movement, Now it's time to work on tweaking the pick-up that is being used. The goal here is to make your pick-up the most appealing particle in the pile. Paylakers have a larger selections of pick-ups than the stars in the sky Most of the Southern lakes I fish allow 4 rods to be fished at one time. The rule of thumb here is to have a different pick-up on each one until one starts to out fish the others. When this happens it's time to make them all the same. That where they get the expression "Hauling" It can get pretty hectic working 4 rods that are catching fish I understand there is a difference between a stimulant and an attractor but the difference is minimal when it comes to catching fish. They both will get the fish into your swim. The key here seems to be what will get them to feed on your hook bait Presentation alone is not the answer. Your offering has got to be the best piece of the pie
Herkel
8-)Hi Herkel
Some nice points regarding attraction v stimulation. We were thinking along the same lines for quite a while until we did some pretty decisive trials that led us to a different conclusion. This is quite important in terms of how 'B' works, so I'll elaborate a little:
Biosource is NOT an attractor, it is a feeding stimulant. During early testing we too assumed the two things were the same, so I tried soaking 'B' into kitty litter and using that as an attractant / 'no feed' chum, just fishing a single bait over the top. I would typically get a bite or two almost immediately, then nothing. This happened time after time, and gave me real fits as I knew from tank studies and hitting the books it should work. However, when we used similar levels of 'B' in groundbait we would get fish after fish - total night and day!
The reason for what we'd seen was simple - Biosource is NOT an attractor, it is a feeding stimulant! Sorry for repeating myself . Basically, the tank studies always gave good results as the fish were confined to a small space, much like the 'resident fish' or two we'd catch right away over the 'B' soaked kitty litter. Now, for a sustained catch rate the fish must be attracted to the fishing area by a food or other attractive flavor - this why the groundbait worked so well, it's natural flavor attracts fish whom, upon arrival, are forced to feed by the 'B'. We later tried non-feed sugar blocks impregnated with 'B' and a powdered or oil flavor such as shrimp, scopex etc. These worked much better that th basic 'B' treated analogues, but still not quite as good as 'B' treated baits.
Summary: Biosource treated baits and / or groundbaits are definitely the way to go - they have both attractive (flavor) and stimulatory ('B') properties that just can't be beat!
Let me know if you have any other questions or comments on this, as it's another key point in the whole 'B' story.
Over stimulation - if too much 'B' as added to baits or groundbait the fish will literally go berserk trying to eat everything and anything around them (including one another!). During trials we saw some very strange things when too much 'B' was introduced - fished getting severely tangled in rigs, as well as fish trying to bite each other (Trev once caught a catfish with another, of similar size, holding on to it's tail!). Most often you'll see abortive takes and lot's of 'twitchy' jabs at the rod tip when the fish get over stimulated or 'tweaked'. We have included wording to this effect in the on-line user guide - you will catch less if you use too much 'B'!!! Less is definitely more with 'B' sometimes...... Herk - for your situation where you dip a hookbait in 'B' you are probably close to the right ambient level in the swim (results seem to indicate this ), so I'd recommend not putting any extra 'B' in your chum / packbait.
Pat
A couple of team mates of mine used soaked Casters and got the response they wanted, I tried this and still could not get a response, with groundbait being a no no in the cold conditions and the water temperature being 5c what do you suggest to get the required bites.
Hi Chris
The 'devil is in the details' as the saying goes - looks to be true in this case at least. I'll send you a more detailed e-mail tomorrow, but, briefly, it think it comes down to keeping the optimum amount of 'B' in the swim by soaking a smaller amount of carrier bait in a stronger soak liquid.
Pat
I would also like to add.
Do not be so afraid of over feeding, when using B. As it is a stimulant fish will eat more, hence more feed is required. Up until the waters froze over, here in Illinois we were still using it with ground bait, with good results.
I would suggest trying heavier feeding on a pleasure outing first, just to see, and get use to the differences.
Trev.
Trev has hit on a fundamentally important difference between 'regular' cold water fishing and what should be expected when using Biosource. For the record, I'd like to go into some detail here on this point, as it's central to the whole project:
1. 'B' is a feeding stimulant, not an attractant. Thus, if fish are there they have no choice but to feed. As I mentioned to Chris and the TSO lads in a recent e-mail:
Thanks for the reports – they made for some interesting reading, and I think you are dead on when it comes to interpreting the poorer results. Basically, the trick with ‘B’ is to keep a certain threshold level of it in the swim at all times. For cold water this has shown to be a small toss pot of 2 tspn / L dosed micros every put in. Also, for less porous baits (meat, casters etc) you can use a pump to get them ‘sorted.
When fishing heavily stocked commercials, testers have found that swims that typically throw up low winter weights can be ‘switched on’ by ‘B’ – it seems that fish that are not actively feeding are often distributed over the whole venue; with the hot spots (deeper water, sheltered from wind etc.) housing the active feeders. It’s not that there aren’t fish there, it’s often just they don’t want to feed(!). Where ‘B’ scores is that it ‘activates’ these fish. This, I think, is a key point, as you can feed more and still catch, as any fish there will feed. If you don’t catch it’s likely the area may have little or no fish present – this happens sometimes, as ‘B’ is a feeding stimulant, not an attractant. Under such conditions Neil P found that casting around with a single grain of ‘B’ soaked corn until he found liners was just the ticket. Once you land on a fish they have no choice but to take the bait(!). Neil really nailed this down, so his old reports are really worth a re-read.
2. The take home message is clear, and reinforces what Trev says - keep the 'B' treated feed going in, as this will keep the fish activated by maintaining the required 'background' level of 'B' in the water (this is the basis of the Biosource patent).
3. This idea is radically different than established 'common wisdom' when fishing cold water - since the fish will now feed avidly, more feed must be introduced. Overfeeding is then not so much of an issue (assuming there are some fish in front of the angler). Even if they are not, you won't catch anything anyway, so stick to the regular feeding approach
4. About a year ago we tried encapsulating 'B' within some zero feed value carriers - soaked clays, kitty litter and soluble sugar blocks. The idea was they would stimulate, but not feed, the fish. They all worked to some extent, but never proved as good as feeding 'B' treated micros and / or groundbait every put in
Summary: Two years testing to this point has shown that regular feeding is needed, even under cold water conditions, with 'B' to get best results. This is because a specific threshold level of 'B' must be dissolved in the water at all times.
Please feel free to add here or send me a PM or e-mail if you would like more details. Full details regarding recipes etc. can be found at the preparations tips section of the www.Biosourcebaits.com site as a downlaodable .pdf file.
Pat
This is interesting, I will to having a team practice on a venue that we will be fishing at the end of January, and It can be tricky depending on the weather conditions and I now will go all out to blow a peg just to see the results, the venue at this time of year usually fishes for Skimmers and Bream but it does hold a large head of Carp that just don't respond well in the cold water, I cant weight to see the response,
;)I'd recommend starting with the recommended 1 toss pot full of micros per put in, as a higher dose of 'B' WILL over stimulate the fish! The last thing you want is a 'jacuzzi', although that would go some way to proving the point!
Looking forward to hearing how it works out.
Pat
Interesting stuff here I'm not sure I understand the concept of over stimulated fish in my swim though. At the Paylakes we fish, it has always been to our advantage to get the fish over stimulated just to keep them at your peg. Spodding and chumming are not allowed in any form but there are ways to get around these rules by the use of PVA bags or breaking pack baits. Most Paylakers try to get as much of their bait into the water as possible just to get the fish feeding in their swim. Once this is achieved as noted from the constant line movement, Now it's time to work on tweaking the pick-up that is being used. The goal here is to make your pick-up the most appealing particle in the pile. Paylakers have a larger selections of pick-ups than the stars in the sky Most of the Southern lakes I fish allow 4 rods to be fished at one time. The rule of thumb here is to have a different pick-up on each one until one starts to out fish the others. When this happens it's time to make them all the same. That where they get the expression "Hauling" It can get pretty hectic working 4 rods that are catching fish I understand there is a difference between a stimulant and an attractor but the difference is minimal when it comes to catching fish. They both will get the fish into your swim. The key here seems to be what will get them to feed on your hook bait Presentation alone is not the answer. Your offering has got to be the best piece of the pie
Herkel
8-)Hi Herkel
Some nice points regarding attraction v stimulation. We were thinking along the same lines for quite a while until we did some pretty decisive trials that led us to a different conclusion. This is quite important in terms of how 'B' works, so I'll elaborate a little:
Biosource is NOT an attractor, it is a feeding stimulant. During early testing we too assumed the two things were the same, so I tried soaking 'B' into kitty litter and using that as an attractant / 'no feed' chum, just fishing a single bait over the top. I would typically get a bite or two almost immediately, then nothing. This happened time after time, and gave me real fits as I knew from tank studies and hitting the books it should work. However, when we used similar levels of 'B' in groundbait we would get fish after fish - total night and day!
The reason for what we'd seen was simple - Biosource is NOT an attractor, it is a feeding stimulant! Sorry for repeating myself . Basically, the tank studies always gave good results as the fish were confined to a small space, much like the 'resident fish' or two we'd catch right away over the 'B' soaked kitty litter. Now, for a sustained catch rate the fish must be attracted to the fishing area by a food or other attractive flavor - this why the groundbait worked so well, it's natural flavor attracts fish whom, upon arrival, are forced to feed by the 'B'. We later tried non-feed sugar blocks impregnated with 'B' and a powdered or oil flavor such as shrimp, scopex etc. These worked much better that th basic 'B' treated analogues, but still not quite as good as 'B' treated baits.
Summary: Biosource treated baits and / or groundbaits are definitely the way to go - they have both attractive (flavor) and stimulatory ('B') properties that just can't be beat!
Let me know if you have any other questions or comments on this, as it's another key point in the whole 'B' story.
Over stimulation - if too much 'B' as added to baits or groundbait the fish will literally go berserk trying to eat everything and anything around them (including one another!). During trials we saw some very strange things when too much 'B' was introduced - fished getting severely tangled in rigs, as well as fish trying to bite each other (Trev once caught a catfish with another, of similar size, holding on to it's tail!). Most often you'll see abortive takes and lot's of 'twitchy' jabs at the rod tip when the fish get over stimulated or 'tweaked'. We have included wording to this effect in the on-line user guide - you will catch less if you use too much 'B'!!! Less is definitely more with 'B' sometimes...... Herk - for your situation where you dip a hookbait in 'B' you are probably close to the right ambient level in the swim (results seem to indicate this ), so I'd recommend not putting any extra 'B' in your chum / packbait.
Pat